rotten_fish
2008-06-17 06:58 pm UTC (link)

Meme has told me the asterisk is about me, so I will say I like you and I'm not pissed at you, and you're free to keep commenting on my JF if you want to. I defriended you a long time ago with a bunch of other people (I'm pretty sure, I've kind of forgotten) because at the time I decided to use JF flock as something to only have people I talk about RL stuff with on and at the time we didn't talk that much, and when we did, it was about fandom. I realize I can use filters but I don't really like to, and I often use FW's friendslist to catch up with people. I didn't make a big post about it because I didn't think anyone would care (I think the opposite about JF - that people don't care as much about their flists as on LJ) and I thought it would be kind of wanky. I'm sorry, and I don't think you're being butthurt. I'm also sorry to see you leave FW, but I understand if it's not your thing anymore.

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This is going to be *really* tl;dr

esclaramonde
2008-06-17 09:24 pm UTC (link)

I was kind of ... interested to see how quickly someone asked why you defriended me, since I only mentioned your name in the locked post I made right after asking. :/ I mean, they didn't say it in an accusatory way about either of us, but still ... Especially considering that the given reason of "you're on the FW flist" doesn't make sense as I had already unjoined FW by the time I made the post, and it therefore didn't come up that way, and so I'm just going to hope really hard that someone on my flist isn't just harvesting information for the meme, esp. as someone on the meme really doesn't seem to care for me at all.

I'm so used to my Joule feed on LJ that I don't check my profile or edit friends page here ever, so I had no clue when it happened, and I figured it was related to the disagreement over fw_secrets (yes, I am paranoid) or the stupid way I responded at the beginning of the Wiscon wank (no, really, I am paranoid) or something I didn't remember from earlier.

I don't usually care, because defriendings are usually from moving apart or into different fandoms for me, but I had a horrible suspicion that it was because of something I'd said, which is different. (Hence footnote.) I just wanted to know if I'd done something. You don't have to feel bad at all, anyone else would have been normal about it except me.

I don't really read any posts on F_W anymore, and when I do check the comments I just find them not very funny and sometimes annoying, so I decided I might as well toss it. Same for OTF, but I left most of the other comms.

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Sorry I replied so late

rotten_fish
2008-06-19 12:34 am UTC (link)

Yeah, iawtc. Meme isn't where you go when you need to find out something about your friends because then meme will just shit on them. I can't imagine that person not realizing that, so I hope it's not someone on your flock.

Well, as far as the disagreement on FW_secret, we're still disagreeing, and that Pui comment really, really, really pissed me off. Considering the comment I just left was pretty harsh... well I wouldn't be surprised if you don't regret defriending me. But yeah. As far as the Wiscon thing, that really was no big deal, don't worry about. I actually felt kinda bad for including you in the report I made - because I liked you and I didn't want you to get mocked.

But, uh, yeah.

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Re: Sorry I replied so late

esclaramonde
2008-06-19 01:58 am UTC (link)

Like I said there, I'm very very sorry. I didn't mean it as harshly as I wrote it, but I have become more cynical about fannish relationships ever since I started paying more attention to fannish politics and since the MsScribe Saga was posted. For what it's worth, when I said about "getting the meme to like her" I only meant that she was naive or something, not that she was being manipulative, and I see that I was wrong.

I don't regret or not regret defriending you; unless I'm following someone's journal for fic or art and am pretty sure they aren't interested in me, I just don't really like having people have access to unfiltered flocked posts unless I have the same on their journal.

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white_serpent
2008-06-18 09:11 pm UTC (link)

I figured I'd come over to your journal to talk to you here about the fw_secrets thing, since I don't like the community and think it's even more painful in reality than I expected it to be in theory. (But, you know, for different reasons!)

I don't know what to say your comment about what Alya's trying to accomplish with fw_secrets, because I can't figure that out myself. I'm guessing she's trying to do something like fandom_court and failing miserably.

Your comments about the secrets being very highly linked to lol_meme... I don't know. The problem is that I have a list of who made nine of the twelve secrets (none were made by me, obviously). As far as I know, ladybirdsleeps, puipui, and sepiamagpie have nothing to do with lol_meme. They made four of the secrets, and two of them have been classified (that I've noticed) as obviously made by memers.

Secret #1 is related to lol_meme only in that puipui looked at it once and saw someone say they pictured her as a fat Polynesian woman, and she found this funny. She's remembered it as one of her few encounters with lol_meme (and it was more than a year ago, I think). Once we saw that lol_meme had discovered fw_secrets, she said she expected to see pictures of fat Polynesian women with "puipui sucks" on them... so someone on her friendslist produced one. I don't know if the person who did it reads lol_meme or not. The fact that she made that statement is why two other secrets refer to her.

From your comments, it sounds like this is typical of meme discussions, but I don't think most of the people involved knew that-- since I don't read lol_meme, I assumed that "puipui hate" wasn't typical, and that the comment was just an isolated incident a year ago. (I really don't know if the comments on the link to my post are typical of lol_meme, either, because I don't read it. People could be saying how much they despise me on a regular basis, or it could be rare, and I would never know.)

I gather that the mcity/staroverthebay secret is supposed to be obviously meme-related, but puipui made it. As it transpires, none of us like mcity or staroverthebay either... which is why ladybirdsleeps nominated her for f_w mod during the April Fool's prank.

We gripe about both of them on a very frequent basis, because we think they're morons-- ladybirdsleeps originated the "fallsoverthebay" nickname. As for mcity, we cheered when mcity was banned from fandom_wank and the other communities for a week. In particular, I cheered, because his post linking Stormfreak's home address really bothered me, and his subsequent claim that it was all the wiki's fault that he'd screwed up infuriated me.

The secrets are way too in-jokey. I had to explain them to

charmian. She's been around longer than I have, and she would normally get f_w-related stuff.

But... I think everyone assumed there would be "serious" secrets posted. They thought that most of these secrets would be interpreted by Alya as "we think your community is stupid," and she'd reject them. A few might make it through, scattered through the rest of the content, and we'd all privately snicker about how stupid the community is. (Everyone's a bit too busy slamming their heads against the wall to laugh right now, but I'm sure we'll get back to it soon.)

On the f_w communities: I find them intensely irritating at the moment, too. OTF_wank has been less irritating recently than fandom_wank, and that's a sad, sad day. Clairvoyantwank has been less irritating than both, probably because it has fewer members.

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	rotten_fish 2008-06-19 12:36 am UTC (link)
	I can attest that the mcity/staroverthebay isn't meme-related. Meme doesn't really talk about them that much. Puihate comes and goes. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	white_serpent 2008-06-19 01:02 am UTC (link)
	I didn't think mcity/staroverthebay would be particularly meme-related, but what do I know? (Reply to this)(Parent)

esclaramonde
2008-06-19 02:24 am UTC (link)

I don't know what to say your comment about what Alya's trying to accomplish with fw_secrets, because I can't figure that out myself. I'm guessing she's trying to do something like fandom_court and failing miserably.

I think she's just trying to make people laugh, really, but one of the things that bothers me is that it's one thing to make fun of people making fun of your friend by pretending to dislike her, but it's another to make fun of someone faily by pretending to like her. The rest of it is all lighthearted.

Re: Puipui -

See, I had no idea she'd made a post like that, I just assumed that people were, well, flocking to a BNW. People *do* bring her up occasionally on the meme, enough that I could see memers who liked her spontaneously coming up with them on their own.

I gather that the mcity/staroverthebay secret is supposed to be obviously meme-related, but puipui made it. As it transpires, none of us like mcity or staroverthebay either... which is why ladybirdsleeps nominated her for f_w mod during the April Fool's prank.

Oh, is that one? I figured with the two with starsoverthebay the only criteria was "is a member of F_W or affiliates".

But... I think everyone assumed there would be "serious" secrets posted. They* thought that most of these secrets would be interpreted by Alya as "we think your community is stupid," and she'd reject them. A few might make it through, scattered through the rest of the content, and we'd all privately snicker about how stupid the community is.

a) When you say the starred "they", do you mean the people whose secrets actually got posted? Because that definitely changes my feelings.
b) I was really, really hoping for ones like the "troll secret" to be the majority. :(((

On the f_w communities: I find them intensely irritating at the moment, too. OTF_wank has been less irritating recently than fandom_wank, and that's a sad, sad day. Clairvoyantwank has been less irritating than both, probably because it has fewer members.

I just get such better mocking from my flist and less fail, plus I don't have to run into boobie trains ever.

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white_serpent
2008-06-19 03:30 am UTC (link)

it's one thing to make fun of people making fun of your friend by pretending to dislike her, but it's another to make fun of someone faily by pretending to like her.

If you're speaking of Staroverthebay, I do believe Staroverthebay knows quite well that she is not well liked on the fandom_wank communities by at least a particular crowd of f_w members. She has a wiki article which talks about how she doesn't get it and never will. And, of course, she's dogpiled almost every time she comments on fandom_wank.

Is it mean? Certainly. She's also been around for years in spite of it.

See, I had no idea she'd made a post like that, I just assumed that people were, well, flocking to a BNW.

A relevant thread, and specifically...

The other relevant threads about many of the posted secrets are on the public post on my journal which you commented on.

I don't happen to know who made the "I wish staroverthebay was a mod" secret; r_f said she was making one, but didn't, and no one else has claimed it.

I also don't understand what you mean here (and on fw_s) about puipui being a BNW, or why on earth you think someone would "suck up" to her. Who qualifies as BNWs? Why? What would anyone get out of sucking up to them? Puipui makes funny comments, and I like her. I assume that's why most of the people on her friendslist are around, too.

a) When you say the starred "they", do you mean the people whose secrets actually got posted? Because that definitely changes my feelings.

Yes. The mistake you're making is in thinking that everyone submitting secrets is a friend of Alya's. Some of them are, and some of them are not. And you can see that on your friendslist.

People with criticisms who also posted secrets made the criticisms quite publicly on we_wank and to Alya on rotten_fish's journal. (I had public criticisms which I didn't pass on to Alya. But I also haven't joined or posted anything to her community, and I don't have her friended. I don't feel like swooping in to say, "Your community is dumb, Alya!" is my job.)

b) I was really, really hoping for ones like the "troll secret" to be the majority. :(((

If you read the link I gave you, you can see Alya's trying to avoid wank from her community. I don't think it will work.

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esclaramonde
2008-06-19 02:28 pm UTC (link)

Re: Starsoverthebay: I know, I know, but it just struck me as not consistent.

I haven't been reading my flist here much lately, because I'm hardly ever logged in and because of the wank comms, so I missed Rf's post there. Damn, I really wish I had been paying attention, because it seems like that would have cleared up everything before it started.

I'm not sure how many of the comments about making the secrets were on your post when I saw it; I only remember a couple generalized ones.

I also don't understand what you mean here (and on fw_s) about puipui being a BNW, or why on earth you think someone would "suck up" to her. Who qualifies as BNWs? Why? What would anyone get out of sucking up to them? Puipui makes funny comments, and I like her. I assume that's why most of the people on her friendslist are around, too.

I don't dislike puipui. I don't really know her; I just wanted to get that out so this doesn't look like some kind of massive grudge. But from what I've seen on FW and related, more people watching than actually reading the wank, she's got a bit of a following and some influence. She's friends with the "main people" of FW, the people I saw/see comment most of the time, who know each other - a kind of inner circle. I really thought everyone thought this, and I'm sorry if I was inadvertently offensive, especially to Puipui or Alya. I suppose I was thinking that someone might be thinking, "If I make a secret and then let it slip to Puipui that I made fun of the people who don't like her, maybe Puipui will like me!"

I don't feel like swooping in to say, "Your community is dumb, Alya!" is my job.

I didn't really plan to, but then I continued on my new path of Realizing I Can Say I Don't Really Like Things Without Flock. I had thought that my going about four comments before saying why I was uncomfortable would make it obvious that I wasn't completely sure, but I was wrong and fucked everything up instead. Please don't think I'm just rude if I don't reply to your possible future response - I'm planning on not responding to anything else on this (unless it's, like Pui or Alya, because even though I apologized to them here and in a couple of other comments it wasn't directly to them), because with each comment I sound more like an idiot and I'd like to leave a shred of dignity intact.

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white_serpent
2008-06-19 06:21 pm UTC (link)

I know, I know, but it just struck me as not consistent.

But Alya doesn't read my journal, or Puipui's journal. The secret submissions are anonymous. How much does Alya know about the history with staroverthebay?

[...] she's got a bit of a following and some influence. She's friends with the "main people" of FW, the people I saw/see comment most of the time, who know each other - a kind of inner circle. [...] I suppose I was thinking that someone might be thinking, "If I make a secret and then let it slip to Puipui that I made fun of the people who don't like her, maybe Puipui will like me!"

Okay, this paragraph is why I'm replying, even though I don't expect you to respond to me. I saw much the same attitude in one of the anons commenting on fw_secret, and got the same vibe off someone in one the thread on lol_meme that linked to my journal.

First: Talking about "influence" presupposes that someone has an agenda. Part of the reason Puipui is popular (if she is) is that she doesn't have one. Sep doesn't have an agenda; Rotten_fish doesn't have an agenda; Ashenmote doesn't either. If you were wondering, I don't have an agenda. This is very important to keep in mind, because it explains why I'm boggling at your statement.

Second: It's not an inner circle, or a "following." It's a group of people who hang out a lot on JournalFen and comment a lot on fandom_wank communities and on each other's journals. People who drop into JF and read a subset of the wanks every once in awhile are just not part of the same crowd. It doesn't mean they're being deliberately excluded.

Third: I know you're suspicious, but try taking people at face value. It doesn't work for everyone, but it works for most people.

I had thought that my going about four comments before saying why I was uncomfortable would make it obvious that I wasn't completely sure

It comes across better if you say up front why you're uncomfortable. Phrase it however you need to, but pussyfooting around it comes off as dishonest (and defensive). If you're going to get jumped on as a result of what you say, you get jumped on.

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