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May I Please Speak to the Complaints Department ([info]ladybirdsleeps) wrote,
@ 2007-12-06 17:49:00
Previous Entry  Add to memories!  Tell a Friend!  Next Entry
HEY ASHENMOTE
... ;_;

There's an idiot on fanficrants who is saying that blackmailing a woman into sex isn't rape; that violence or the threat of violence is required. The idiot is German and made a vague reference to German law being different.

Do you know anything about what German law says regarding rape and consent? All I can find (being limited to English and lacking in Google fu) is that Germany has the crime of "sexual coercion", which doesn't require proof of force or resistance, that can be aggravated to rape if intercourse occurs.

(Post a new comment)


[info]tez
2007-12-07 12:25 am UTC (link)
JiggamotherfuckingWHAT??

Where is this asshattery going down?

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[info]ladybirdsleeps
2007-12-07 12:34 am UTC (link)
It's going down right here. Many of the comments are disturbing, but that one really stands out.

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[info]tez
2007-12-07 12:37 am UTC (link)
...

I'll be over here staring with my jaw on the floor and sitting on my hands.

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[info]ladybirdsleeps
2007-12-07 12:39 am UTC (link)
Check out moodring54 calling blackmail of a woman into sexual intercourse no more than sexual harassment.

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[info]tez
2007-12-07 12:41 am UTC (link)
I'm weeping for humanity right now.

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[info]ladybirdsleeps
2007-12-07 01:22 am UTC (link)
Sometimes I'm tempted to abuse my mod powers and ban people for being reprehensible human beings. But that's not against the rules in Fanficrants. Yet.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)


[info]tez
2007-12-07 01:23 am UTC (link)
Well, there IS that last rule...

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[info]ashenmote
2007-12-07 12:39 am UTC (link)
Well, if fanficrants idiot bases his argument on the legal distinction between sexual coercion and rape, it would be kind of like claiming that second degree murder doesn't kill people because law punishes first degree murder more severely.

Nope, on the spot I don't know any specifics, but I found the post now and if I can somehow figure out what your idiot is referring to, I can see what german google fu will get me.



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[info]ladybirdsleeps
2007-12-07 12:41 am UTC (link)
it would be kind of like claiming that second degree murder doesn't kill people because law punishes first degree murder more severely.

That's a very good way to put it. If she replies I may steal it from you.

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[info]ashenmote
2007-12-07 01:16 am UTC (link)
Well, it seems pretty pointless to research german laws for this. All that "The victim has a choice, so the victim has a part responsibility, so I don't think the victim has a right to complain!" talk is germankitty-speak and not german legalese, and if you take that away nothing is left from her argument.

That's a very good way to put it. If she replies I may steal it from you.

You're welcome. I think I would go for a simple "You are a poo-poo-head." reply with her, but pretty much anything is suitable.

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[info]ladybirdsleeps
2007-12-07 01:21 am UTC (link)
In one of her comments, she says her beliefs about rape might be due to a "cultural difference." Somehow, I'm not convinced that Germans are such absolute asshats.

Well, not any more than the Canadians, anyway.

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[info]ashenmote
2007-12-07 01:42 am UTC (link)
All I can say is, of all the people in that thread she's the one I'm having the biggest cultural difference with. I guess my german subculture and hers don't hang out at the same parties or something.

And I don't wanna reply to her on fanficrants. Please don't make me. :|

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[info]ladybirdsleeps
2007-12-07 01:49 am UTC (link)
And I don't wanna reply to her on fanficrants. Please don't make me. :|

You don't have to! I really just wanted to know about German law, because she seems to think that Germany is different.

I'm not sure she's going to reply, anyway.

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[info]ashenmote
2007-12-07 02:18 am UTC (link)
Thanks :)
because she seems to think that Germany is different.
But yeah, that's the thing. It makes me want to yell "Speak for yourself, missy!" at her, but at the same time I don't wanna.

Hey, I never realized how cute that emoticon looks in italics! That's awesome.

:|

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[info]ladybirdsleeps
2007-12-07 03:10 am UTC (link)
I'll yell at her if she comes back! I'll tell her the German lurkers support me in email.

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[info]ashenmote
2007-12-07 04:53 am UTC (link)
...

Re german law: Ouch. I looked it up after all and now I kind of wish I hadn't. Legally, it requires either violence or a threat against life and health of the victim for a case of sexual coercion or rape (2 to 15 years punishment for rape, and it would be considered rape if it involves sexual intercourse or some sort of penetration). Any lesser threat would make it a case of particularly severe general coercion (5 month to 5 years) instead.

I kind of hope I misunderstood something there, but that's how it looks.

[info]germankitty is still an idiot for voluntarily adopting that line of reasoning, though.

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[info]ladybirdsleeps
2007-12-07 05:02 am UTC (link)
So really, we have several idiots: Germankitty, and whoever is responsible for that law.

So sexual coercion by definition involves force in Germany. Nice.

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[info]ashenmote
2007-12-07 05:19 am UTC (link)
Yeah, force or threat of force. I'm sorry. Unless I'm misunderstanding something, but I don't think so.

Maybe you should put that "German is a modern country!" exclamation on ffr in perspective.

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[info]ladybirdsleeps
2007-12-07 05:56 am UTC (link)
I'm suddenly hoping that the legal definition of "force" itself (or whatever be-umlautted word it is in the original German) includes things like blackmail and abuses of power.

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[info]ashenmote
2007-12-07 08:55 am UTC (link)
Yeah, my first thought when I stumbled over that bit was like, but surely the life in prison in the example would count as a threat to life and health? But no such luck. The article was very clear on the intent.

So I can only hope it's a wikipedia error now. I'll try to look up the law itself if I have some more time.

But I remember that there was a big reform of the german laws on sexual assault in 1998 and it felt like saying bye-bye to the dark ages then. Before that, rape and sexual coercion weren't different degrees of the same crime, it was more like the former was a crime and the latter was kind of a peccadillo. And rape in marriage and rape against males didn't even exist in the laws and stuff. And they had to make compromises and I guess they figured anything would be better than, you know, keeping the old laws. If I recall correctly, the conservative christian parties are to blame for derailing the reform.

So, while I'm vaguely ashamed of the laws that we have now, I can't really be mad at the people who forged it. However, I can be mad at people who wave around the most dubious aspects of a compromised law as if they were the moral grail of german society.

Even though it's nice to inform me about them, I guess.

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[info]ashenmote
2007-12-08 10:32 pm UTC (link)
Now I'm awake and I looked up the actual laws and it still looks the same to me.

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[info]ladybirdsleeps
2007-12-08 10:49 pm UTC (link)
>=(

Now I have one more reason to hate Germany, after pumpernickel bread and Oktoberfest Barbie.

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[info]ashenmote
2007-12-08 11:52 pm UTC (link)
You need to eat it with Nutella! If possible, stoned. I grew up half a hour away from the place where Pumpernickel was invented, so I learned to like it. I had to.

There is no excuse for Oktoberfest Barbie though, I give you that.

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[info]ladybirdsleeps
2007-12-09 12:12 am UTC (link)
Woe, for I don't like nutella either.

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[info]faultypremise
2007-12-07 04:47 am UTC (link)
what.

the.

SHIT?!?

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[info]herongale
2007-12-07 11:31 am UTC (link)
Just because character B is forced to have sex against her will, how is that worse than if she were forced to steal/cheat/whatever?

Funny, I thought that if someone was forced to steal/cheat/whatever, it was NOT THEIR FAULT THEN EITHER.

Obviously, I'm sure you can go on a case-by-case basis and say that some people are "coerced" by some very flimsy arguments. But of course, true coersion needs to be looked at contextually: often coersion is not dependant on one simple incident, but a string of dehumanizing insults and abusive isolation and threats. "Bitch, fuck me or I leave" might sound wimpy to this person, but if placed in the context of a domestic situation where the abusive partner has incrimentally and insideously used psychological power, financial power, and physical intimidation... well.

The whole "I still have a choice if I LET myself be made into a victim" mentality very much ignores the fact that its pure luck when people end up being born in happy families who support them in a stable, peaceful community environment. People who cannot appreciate how fortunate they are not to have been born/forced into tragic life events make me sick.

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[info]ladybirdsleeps
2007-12-07 06:57 pm UTC (link)
It's such a superior attitude. Everyone wants to be able to look at a situation like that and say, "well, I'm stronger than to allow that to happen to me -- I'd get out," but the smart ones realize that human nature is not so clear-cut. We're social animals, and it's distressingly easy for others to pressure us into things that, if we're removed from that horrible context, we would never agree to do.

It's the same way that con artists are able to dupe intelligent people into believing ridiculous things, like that a satellite can perform medical scans on your body while you sleep. Of course it sounds ridiculous to people who read about the scam from a distance, but the people who fell for it were placed under psychological pressure that interfered with their judgment. It's incredibly easy to do.

Personally, I think that people who say "I would never let myself be a victim" are just ignorant of basic psychology. Not to mention compassion.

/rant

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[info]puipui
2007-12-07 08:58 pm UTC (link)
Personally, I think that people who say "I would never let myself be a victim" are just ignorant of basic psychology. Not to mention compassion.

Either that, or they are in major major denial.

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[info]herongale
2007-12-07 11:43 am UTC (link)
Also!

There is often a legal distinction between "coersion" and "rape," usually boiling down to a difference in degree regarding the consequences. This difference exists not because coersion is a lesser crime than rape, but because violent rape is rape plus something more. The violence gives an added dimension to the whole problem, and society has generally determined that if rape is bad enough, it's even worse if you mutilate someone in the process.

I think there are issues with these legal definitions, frankly. I understand the reason the distinction exists, but it so often gives people the very mistaken idea that coerced sex is not rape. If there needs to be a difference in punishment, the law could still distinguish between "coercive rape" and "violent rape." Rape is the constant and by removing it from the legal terminology, it allows idiots to frame coersion as a relatively acceptable act. It is obviously no such thing.

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[info]faultypremise
2007-12-07 08:09 pm UTC (link)
You know what really disturbs me about all this? That she's been a victim of sexual battery and refuses to understand that it wasn't her fault. She's choosing to blame herself, and by extension lay that blame at the feet of every other woman who's been in such a situation.

Kind of sad really. She claims she's gotten over it, but I think clearly there are some lingering psychological issues going on there.

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[info]ladybirdsleeps
2007-12-08 10:58 pm UTC (link)
Yikes, I just read your conversation with her. I think I'm just going to stop replying.

I had to read a paper about rape myths for psych last semester, and one of the things that stuck out (because I still remember it), was that women who blame themselves for their sexual assault have impaired psychological recovery. Common sense, of course -- but I wish I still had the cite so I could throw the numbers out there.

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[info]barankhy
2007-12-18 03:27 pm UTC (link)
I stumbled across this while browsing through friendsfriends, and I hope you don't mind this tiny contribution.

The idiot mentions semantics, and whereas I don't want to give her the benefit of the doubt, there is a bit of semantics that does sorta kinda back her up (or at least her connotations... bear with me).

The German for 'rape' is 'Vergewaltigung', which is related to 'Gewalt' (violence (or also power)), and thus, if she totally equals 'rape' and 'Vergewaltigung', this would at least more-or-less justify her inclusion of violence or threat thereof (I do not speak any legalese, but I think the term for blackmailing someone into sex would be 'sexuelle Nötigung'; basically, German puts a relatively widely known distinction up where English only has a common broad term).

Of course, this doesn't justify her mixing up German and English semantics, or her general idiocy, but it might put an at least partially, er, understandable persepctive on it.

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