lakme

As most people reading this most likely know, I am a clinical psychology student and my area of interest is in personality pathology. Personality disorders are widely, widely misunderstood and for this reason I have to put up with a lot of stupidity, especially on the internet.

Usually I just ignore it, but every so often someone comes along whose insistence that they are a genius on the subject while displaying utter ignorance motivates me to actually dispell what they are saying.

The following is a collection of comments from an LJ discussion on Harry Potter. The bolded comments are my responses.



Actually, it makes perfect sense for someone with Narcissistic Personality Disorder (NPD) to be a succesful manipulator. From wikipedia:

Narcissism according to the Hare Psychopathy Checklist, which includes the following traits:

Glibness/superficial charm
Grandiose sense of self-worth
Pathological lying
Conning/manipulative
Lack of remorse or guilt
Shallow affect
Callous/lack of empathy
Failure to accept responsibility for own actions."

As good of a diagnostic tool as Wiki is, the PCL-R is a measure of psychopathy. Not narcissism. The narcissism it measures is aggressive, which would not describe every narcissist on the planet. Also, you can't diagnose someone based on a single assessment tool.

This is Albus is a nutshell. The superficial charm has been there from day one, everybody thought he was just really a nice, doddering old geezer with a twinkle in his eye and loads of wisdom. He just wasn't really nice, and he wasn't wise in any stretch of the word. He was a narcissist, and they wear masks. The grandiose sense of selfworth. Oh, yes! The whole 'only guy Voldemort ever feared' thing. And everybody fell for it. Why should Voldemort fear Dumbledore? Voldemort DID fear Dumbledore. It's been established. Dumbledore never did anything to threaten him. The constant lying. Really, go back and check everything Dumbledore has ever said, and none of it turned out to be true, but everybody *thought* he was good and wise and thus spoke the truth. The total lack of remorse or guilt. I mean, he got the Potters killed (I mean, really, he got warned months ahead that they are specifically targetted. How big a goof up whas *that*?) Not like he suggested the Fidelius Charm or anything and what does he do? He dumps their kid on the doorstep of the Dursley *all twinkly and happy* because he's got a new chesspiece to play yet another intricate game with. Swythyv's essay on Dumbledore was spot on when she analysed his behaviour. We are groomed to think Dumbledore as this great strategist, but in fact, *all his 'wonderful plans' FAILED*! People *die* on Albus' watch, but does this matter? No, of course not. Albus only gets upset when his wonderful plans fall through, which is never *his* fault, of course, but alway *other people's*.

This part hurts my brain because it lacks a complete understanding of NPD. First off, personality pathology is a spectrum. Maybe Dumbledore does have Narcissistic traits, but that doesn't mean he meets DSM criteria.

Dumbledore denies Voldemort fearing him, actually, but okay.

"To the extent that people are pathologically narcissistic, they can be controlling, blaming, self-absorbed, intolerant of others’ views, unaware of others' needs and of the effects of their behavior on others, and insistent that others see them as they wish to be seen."
"These traits will lead overly narcissistic parents to be very intrusive in some ways, and entirely neglectful in others. The children are punished if they do not respond adequately to the parents’ needs. This punishment may take a variety of forms, including physical abuse, angry outbursts, blame, attempts to instill guilt, emotional withdrawal, and criticism. Whatever form it takes, the purpose of the punishment is to enforce compliance with the parents' narcissistic needs."

Albus is intelligent, but not as brilliant as he thinks he is. That is just his narcissistic need to be special, and the persona he projects. It is important to realise that he is, in fact, not all that and a cherry on top:

Here's the thing about personality disorders: they are inflexible and maladaptive. If we took Dumbledore outside of an environment that adored him, would he still act the same way? Say these behaviors they accuse him of are true. What is motivating him? He still may not be Narcissistic. Personality disorders are not just, check, check, check, check, okay, you have this disorder. They are incredibly complicated and (as this demonstrates) misunderstood.

Btw, I find it hilarious that one of the DSM criteria for NPD is a sense of entitlement, which a LOT of this fandom seems to have.


"Though individuals with NPD are often ambitious and capable, the inability to tolerate setbacks, disagreements or criticism, along with lack of empathy, make it difficult for such individuals to work cooperatively with others or to maintain long-term professional achievements. With narcissistic personality disorder, the person's perceived fantastic grandiosity, often coupled with a hypomanic mood, is typically not commensurate with his or her real accomplishments."

The problems with the claims marionros is making is that Narcissists tend to be lazy. Working for accomplishments is beneath them. Exerting effort is belittling. If you want to make the argument that Dumbledore is a mix of Narcissistic and Compulsive, okay, but then I would just write another essay because I don't think that, either (though he must have some compulsive traits--most academics do!)

Mind you, Dumbledore isn't the only one with a NPD. All things above accurately describes Harry as well, with the lack of empathy, the self-centredness, the way he cares for people only when they are dead because he can use them as an excuse for his failing and his miserable life, the grandioseness, the way he constantly misinterprets other people's motives, the rage when Other People just won't do what he tells them to and question him. Harry is a kid. You can't diagnose a kid with a PD. And there's another NPD in the Trio as well. Hermione looks pretty narcissistic to me, with her obsessive need to be seen as the smartest, bestest witch Hogwarts has ever seen (but she doesn't really sound truly intelligent to me - she just wants to be), her emotional shallowness, the way she misunderstand people and tries to find out by reading a pop science self help book, the way she violently retalliates. And we fall for it. We really think she really is the smartest witch of her age. Bull, I say! Why not go further? I think Ron has NPD! And Hagrid! AND EVERY OTHER CHARACTER I HATE BECAUSE ME NOT LIKING SOMEONE MEANS THEY MUST HAVE SOMETHING WRONG WITH THEM.

I'm going to pull an Albert Ellis and say that this is so dumb I cannot even begin to respond to it. Aside from, yeah, Harry's never felt empathy before. It's not like he identified with Snape in SWM. It's not like he felt sorry for Neville over his parents being insane. Also, Harry hates attention. He shows discomfort in these situations, such as his interviews with Rita Skeeter or when Lockhart posed with him in those pictures. That is pretty much antithetical to Narcissism.

This actually brings me to a point. Every personality disorder has a good side to it. Antisocial personalities make good lawyers and business people. Compulsives are highly productive in society. Dependents have good interpersonal skills. Etc etc. Marionros doesn't seem to get that having a personality disorder is not all bad.

You can't cherry pick DSM criteria and then go "Oh, that person is Narcissistic." Everyone has the traits seen in personality disorders. It's just people with diagnosable personality disorders have extreme levels of these traits, and is failing to adapt in everyday life because of them. I also think marionros is forgetting distress and impairment. Even if these people were Narcissistic personalities, you can't diagnose them without either of those.

Quite frankly, I've often wondered if there wasn't a touch of NPD in Rowling herself. Do you not realize that there are other personality disorders you can ignorantly slap on people? I mean, she just doesn't *get* people. It was one of the things that put me off the books right from the start; her insistence that Harry, who on the first page of the first book was described as 'happy that his babysitter had broken an arm because now he could go to the Zoo too', was a nice boy. I think we were supposed to find it really sad that Harry could only go to the zoo if his babysitter got injured. The disparity between the way she showed characters and their actions and the way she told us that we must interpret them.

Not *getting* people is not a criteria for NPD. That fits pretty much any psychological disorder. And, please, let me see the MMPI or MCMI-III data as well as the clinical interview you have given JKR that allows you make these assertions.

Take Snape. I've been exaxperated with that whole 'oh, Snape is such a nasty teacher'. Well, he isn't a luvvy duvvy kind of New Age hippy teacher with goathair socks and sandals, for sure, but nasty? I've had loads of teachers like him, and they were all universally respected, if not outright loved (normal children like to be challenged, and can appreciate dry wit in a teacher, as long as he is an able teacher). But then, the kid with NPD *would* object to a teacher like Snape. Why?

I'd object to Snape being my teacher, so I guess I have NPD. Of course, according to this person's logic everyone has it unless you're Snape or someone who likes him. I can see the DSM criteria now!

Well, a person with NPD doesn't really have a well developed personality. They instinctively feel the lack, so they compensate for it by building a Persona, who is very Special and who Nobody Gets. What? You can't make that assumption. Some people with NPD genuinely beleive that they are awesome and have absolutely no insecurity.Lacking empathy, they train themselves from an early age to deduce what 'makes a person tick' from their actions, but they usually don't quite 'get it'.I don't think a Narcissist would really care to even interpret this based on actions. This sounds FAR more anti-social to me. This means that when they are confronted with a snarky, dry-witted teacher who isn't impressed with the Persona, this spells disaster for the NPD. When Snape punctures Harry's 'Special Person Persona' (as in 'The Celebrity Boy Who Lived') What. This is totally his persona because he invented it and it's not like he hadn't even known people called him that until a few days ago... wait... and insists that he is judged on what he knows instead of the image he projects, Harry sees this as an all out attack. Of course Harry sees this as an attack; his whole life he has been told he is a nobody, but he has always believed to be special, different from the dreaded Dursleys, Harry dealt with years of emotional abuse and it's amazing he came out with as little pathology as he did. He never felt he was more special than the Dursleys, he just didn't think he deserved the abuse that he suffered. Which he didn't. and then he finds out that he really *is* special and then this, this teacher has the affront to rip off his new and wonderful Persona to show the world that there is an ignorant little boy beneath it. He was asking him sixth year questions on his first day of his first year. And the Slytherins snicker and laugh at him! Oh, Harry will never forgive *that*. And neither will Rowling, his creator.

I have to disagree on your assesment of Rolwings ability to weave a plot, though. The only books that had a nice plot were no's 1 and 3, and the whole series were all 'loose weave'. There was no arc, no backstory interwoven from the start. Lots of retconning, yes.
I do agree wholeheartedly with your assessment of her characterbuilding abilities. She just doesn't seem to know what makes people tick. And you do, of course.

Y'know, my eldest sister is a narcissist. Of course she is. She's never seen the inside of a psychologist or psychiatrist's office, Lay person diagnosis FTW! but when I came across the term, fifteen years ago, the description was so eerily spot-on, I decided to read everything about narcissism that I could lay my hand on. Apparently you've missed Millon, who cautions HEAVILY against throwing personality disorders around.
I used to call my sister a 'walking black hole'; whatever love you threw at her, it was never enough. I'm not getting into detail, but surviving the clutches of a narcissist is difficult and it always leaves scars.

There is such a creature as a 'classic narcissist's victim', and Severus Snape just ticks all the boxes for me. So I've rootled around on internet, and this is what I came up with.

http://www.buzzle.com/editorials/5-13-2006-96057.asp Again, another scientific research source.

Several types of narcissists' victims are described. Two of which, imo, can be found in the Potter books as Dumbledore's victims, and especially poor Snape fits right in.

"Victims of the narcissist's misleading signals

These are the victims of the narcissist's deceiving emotional messages. The narcissist mimics real emotions artfully. He exudes the air of someone really capable of loving or of being hurt, of one passionate and soft, empathic and caring. Most people are misled into believing that he is even more humane than average.

I'm not really a fan of their using the word "he," which perpetuates the gender disparity between personality disorders.

They fall in love with the mirage, the fleeting image, with the fata morgana of a lush emotional oasis in the midst of their emotional desert. They succumb to the luring proposition that he is. They give in, give up, and give everything only to be discarded ruthlessly when judged by the narcissist to be no longer useful.

OH! I knew it just from the grandiose, dramatic text--this is by Sam Vaknin. No one in the field that I know of considers him a credible source on this subject. His PhD is not in psychology and he has actually been diagnosed with Narcissism himself.

Riding high on the crest of the narcissist's over-valuation only to crash into the abysmal depths of his devaluation, they lose control over their emotional life. The narcissist drains them, exhausts their resources, sucks the blood-life of Narcissistic Supply from their dwindling, depleted selves.

The narcissist's false emanations are not restricted to messages with emotional content. They may contain wrong or false or partial information. The narcissist does not hesitate to lie, deceive, or "reveal" (misleading) half-truths. He appears to be intelligent, charming and, therefore, reliable. He is a convincing conjurer of words, signs, behaviours, and body language.

The above two classes of victims are casually exploited and then discarded by the narcissist. No more malice is involved in this than in any other interaction with an instrument. No more premeditation and contemplation than in breathing. These are victims of narcissistic reflexes. Perhaps this is what makes it all so repulsively horrific: the offhanded nature of the damage inflicted.

Not so the third category of victims.


These are the victims upon which the narcissist designs, maliciously and intentionally, to inflict his wrath and bad intentions. The narcissist is both sadistic and masochistic. In hurting others he always seeks to hurt himself. In punishing them he wishes to be penalised. Their pains are his.

This fits Sadistic Personality Disorder more.

Thus, he attacks figures of authority and social institutions with vicious, uncontrolled, almost insane rage – only to accept his due punishment (their reaction to his venomous diatribes or antisocial actions) with incredible complacency, or even relief. He engages in vitriolic humiliation of his kin and folk, of regime and government, of his firm or of the law – only to suffer pleasurably in the role of the outcast, the ex-communicated, the exiled, and the imprisoned.

Sounds more Antisocial to me.

The punishment of the narcissist does little to compensate his randomly (rather incomprehensibly) selected victims. The narcissist forces individuals and groups of people around him to pay a heavy toll, materially, in reputation, and emotionally. He is ruinous, and disruptive.

In behaving so, the narcissist seeks not only to be punished, but also to maintain emotional detachment. Threatened by intimacy and by the predatory cosiness of routine and mediocrity – the narcissist lashes back at what he perceives to be the sources of this dual threat. He attacks those he thinks take him for granted, those who fail to recognise his superiority, those who render him "average" and "normal".

And they, alas, include just about everyone he knows."


Well, there we have it. All the signs are there. Albus' manipulation, the way all his 'games' are centered around *his* glory, No, I really think it's more about getting rid of Voldemort. Speaking of Narcissism, btw. the way he *uses* people and doesn't give a damn if they break, He cares, it's just the whole greater good thing, his hatred of authority and subsequent 'wanting to rule the world' fantasies in his youth and anti-government (Ministry) Kids' personalities aren't crystallized yet so that doesn't really work, even the childhood criteria for Antisocial has been criticized Order-of-the-Phoenix semi-terrorist games. (really, was the Ministry really that incompetent, or have we just been listening to Albus too long?) ... Semi-terrorist? but most especially, the way he continuously, for years and years, punishing Snape (and Slytherin in general) to punish himself.

This was the first impression I had of Snape in the early Potterbooks: 'competent teacher, but constantly undermined by the Headmaster and the rest of staff.'
We constantly saw little shreds of evidence that Snape was the teacher even the staff (or Headmaster) dispised. The little lies Dumbledore tells Harry about Snape. The half-truths, which are worse than his lies. Taking on Lupin the werewolf (and coercing Snape into interaction with him - he had to make that potion after all) when Lupin was the werewolf Oh, how horrible of Dumbledore, taking a social outcast as a staff member at great risk to his own reputation that nearly killed Snape as a boy, must be like rubbing salt into a still festering wound. That Lupin got away with making a fellow teacher ridiculous in class (with that Boggart stunt) is also telling. Maybe Snape shouldn't have been so mean to Neville as to make him fear him more than anything in the world, then No teacher in Real Life could get away with that. It's highly unproffessional. You're just mad because it was Snape. If he'd pictured James in a dress it'd be your favorite scene. Dumbledore's 'joke' with the Christmas cracker is telling; with this joke he loudly proclaims that Snape has less clout and importance than the lowest worm. Maybe I could write an essay on what your inability to take a joke says about your personality He's fair game for all students to make fun of and all teachers to undermine his authority. Snape takes points? Another teacher will reinstall them. Probably because Snape is horribly unfair Harry constantly refuses to even refer to Snape with his honorific 'professor' and Dumbledore gently reproofs him, but never effectively so and thus the message is "as the Headmaster it's my duty to point out that you should say 'professor Snape', but my heart isn't really in and no consequenses will follow if you do slip up', I can see it now, let's expell Harry for not saying "Professor Snape" and so Harry continues (and worsens) each year to be a total snot to Snape. It's not like Snape deserves it or anything He cheeks, he is lazy, he doesn't listen in class, he actively contredicts Snape in class, he is a teacher's nightmare, and all with the blessing of Albus Dumbledore. Snape brought it on himself. You're the one saying people have to earn respect. Snape didn't with Harry.
And then we see in 'Deathly Hallows' how Albus treats Snape when they are in private, and the 'nice guy persona' falls off Albus completely. Acting differently to different people in different situations! Oh, the humanity!
Dumbledore is a typical 'black hole'. He detects or creates a need in his victims and demands that they pay and pay and pay, and it is never enough. Seriously, you are mixing Narcissistic in with a ton of other personality disorders, like Antisocial and Sadistic. Snape exhausts himself trying to appease Dumbledore, but it is never enough. You have to admire him for living so long without losing his mind with that constant mental torture.


Snape is a typical Narcissist's Victim, pushed in a loop of constant pleasing the narcissist and, of course, failing to do so. Narcissists are dreary people, really. Even the most intelligent aren't really interesting people. They lack the 'wiring' to be interesting. They know this, deep down, and so invent a new persona for themselves and reinvent their lives into a Grand Drama. They need to *believe* that their persona is the real person, they need to *believe* that their lives is a Grand Drama, and they need players as extras in that Grand Drama which is their lives. Woe to them who the narcissist focusses on as a pawn in that Grand Drama.

And that just sounds Histrionic to me. Differential diagnosis please, guys!


PS, rereading my posts, the bit about "He engages in vitriolic humiliation of his kin and folk, of regime and government, of his firm or of the law – only to suffer pleasurably in the role of the outcast, the ex-communicated, the exiled, and the imprisoned" struck me. About how it's completely wrong because that describes Sadistic Personality and not Narcissistic? Remember how Dumbledore 'martyred' himself when he claimed that *he* had formed 'Dumbledore's Army'? People thought it noble, that he 'protected Harry' (but from what? Harry was just a student forming a duelling club, but the Headmaster forming a 'secret army' was borderline seditious. They would not have expelled Harry, but they had to remove Dumbledore as Headmaster) Other people thought it very stupid of Dumbledore: things are heating up, Harry needs guidance and what does he do? He effectively removes himself from the scene, discrediting himself in the public eye, without a very good reason. That's not how a good general acts! But of course, this is not why Dumbledore claims leadership of the DA. He just loves to be a martyr for the cause. It fits in his Grand Drama of Albus Dumbledore's Life. Okay, let's go over the model for Narcissistic. It is Passive Self-Oriented. PASSIVE. Narcissists tend to not put this much effort into stuff. Again, this sounds more Histrionic to me.

Same thing with his death. Take away the suicide plot which he wrangles Snape into. What is left? A stupid old man putting on a cursed ring and dying an ignoble death. That is not to be tolerated! And so he connives and coerces and bullies Snape into compliance. Snape needs to do the deed, in such a way that it makes the most dramatic impact. Not because Snape had to kill Dumbledore or else he'd die from breaking the Unbrekable Bond he made. Oh, all for the 'greater good' of course.. But not really. Because that whole 'Snape needed to go even deeper undercover' is bullsh*t. Snape was the only member of the Order of the Phoenix that had an active role and could achieve something, and with his suicide pact Dumbledore effectively removed Snape from the Order and viola! The Order is revealed to be a useless sham! There is no Grand Plan Against Voldemort. The Order is just a bunch of Lost Boys listening to Albus Peter Pan Dumbledore's grandstanding and self aggrandisements. Do you read the same books that I do? The suicide pact was stupid, but it gave Dumbledore a glorious exit and ensured him a grand burial (did you puke at the description of that funeral as well?) No, not really.
Maybe the plan was first for Draco to kill him, but being bested by a seventeen year old boy wouldn't have made Dumbledore a Hero. No, it was the friggin' Elder Wand.. aghh, forget it. Being Killed by a Trusted Employee Death Eater Because You Were So Good To Give Him A Second Chance makes good headlines.

And that was all that mattered to Albus Dumbledore, the most accurately described narcissist in childrens literature. You have to give Rowling that. Even though she doesn't realise it. Which says something about her. No, I think the best Narcissist in the books is Gilderoy Lockhart.