I was trying to think of the last novel I read - not even fantasy; just ... a novel - in which people made more than a token protest against violence or war. I came up with nothing.

How were the separatists dissenting against their former religion?

PS Hi. <3

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Hi! Good to see you. I missed you. *hugs*

It's not a very common theme, is it? I keep thinking that at some point I read a novel about a diplomatist who tried really hard but still lost the struggle to the soldiers, yet I can't remember any titles or authors.

The separatists were originally part of a culture that recognized three gods: Child, Son, and Father, corresponding to different phases of an individual (man's) life. Women were considered to be not all that important and forever locked in the Child realm because they could not be adult men (Sons) or fathers of any sort. Saonin, a woman with some advantages- education, and mobility, mostly- had a vision of three more gods, Daughter, Mother, and Elder, to cover the whole of all people's lives. She gained a lot of support, particularly from women, and led them away north. Her cultural descendants are still very sturdily proud of the fact that their culture recognizes women as fully equal.

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I WILL READ THIS BOOK. I WILL READ IT NINE TIMES. I am intrigued by the ideas of the society that this would foster; real equality should take into account different stages of life, instead of being locked into, say, old white dudes.

I... think that George R.R. Martin wrote a series of shorts about the warrior-religion of the Pale Child Bakkalon? And there was a story with a Kipling title, "And Seven Times Never Kill Man". There was a merchant ... no, I am wrong; he taught the natives to fight back, he didn't say that fighting was wrong. O wel!

I have missed you terribly! I was glad to come back to the interwebs and find that you are still here. <3

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Yes, I'm hoping it will come across that way. One thing I need to do in the revision is find a way to increase the presence of the Elder, who's not mentioned much, and to increase the identification the male characters feel for the Son/Father (since the main characters are women, the goddesses are mentioned more often). But it's a society where women can participate in politics, rule, leave property to their daughters, breed with whom they want- there's no marriage as such, just various contractual relationships to have children, and otherwise love affairs of varying degrees of casualness- and vote.

The theme of violence's cost is often addressed, I think, but not so much the idea that you can get out of paying the cost.

So glad to see you back.

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Vetinari seems generally dead-set against war and is pretty explicit in the idea that it's the stupidest thing ever - the closest Ankh-Morpork ever gets is in Jingo.

Granted, that doesn't say anything for its prevalence, given Pratchett is usually reacting against fantasy commonplaces (or at least examining them Very Closely), but.

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My main problem with the way that Pratchett addresses the avoidance of war is that he makes it seem too easy. There's not really any sacrifice involved; the opponents just sit down and talk like reasonable people, and that's all that's needed.

Granted, in certain types of plot set-up this can work. I liked what he did in Jingo, and I've liked the way he handled the metaphysical conflicts in the Death books. But Monstrous Regiment adds a religious element to the war, then makes it clear no one actually believes in the religion; and Thud!'s solution is far, far too easy. I would like to see Vimes suffer actual loss or a compromise that doesn't work out to his advantage, but that's probably not going to happen unless/until Pratchett writes the book where he dies. He doesn't like the honors Vetinari heaps on him, true, but he's obviously the best person for the position, and they're shown as having a minor impact on his life.

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