I saw that the other day and it was not only depressing but completely bizarre. I mean, even assuming that white straight men will refuse to see anything that isn't about white straight men (which isn't true, but whatever), do they just think that women and minorities...don't see movies? Or only see them in the company of white straight men? Or are only interested in white straight men? What? I don't understand. :(

I'm sorry to hear about your uncle; I hope everything turns out okay.

Yeah, I hope so too :(

The way it's been explained to me is that the female dollar is just not expected to be worth the same amount as the male dollar - we're supposed to buy make-up and stuff, not merchandise :\ As for other minorities - I have no idea. I have run into some whites that were truly surprised that non-whites watch "white" tv. Slightly related, I remember a relative of mine commenting, "Wow, it's strange to see an Asian couple eating at a Mexican restaurant." :| Same mentality. I don't really get it either.

I assumed it was the same philosophy I've heard trotted out with kids and books-- "Female readers have no problems reading about a male protagonist, but male readers will not read about a female protagonist. Therefore, it's better to have male protagonists."

The thought has occurred to me that male readers won't read about female characters that talk about dating, fashion, and makeup [or, at least, won't admit to reading it]... but I bet they'd read about female characters slicing monsters up into tiny pieces.

I assumed it was the same philosophy I've heard trotted out with kids and books-- "Female readers have no problems reading about a male protagonist, but male readers will not read about a female protagonist. Therefore, it's better to have male protagonists."

Oh, I see. :\

If you really really stretch it, Hot Fuzz just barely passes, on account of the female members of the NWA. Shaun of the Dead fails, and also uses "gay" as an insult in a scene that's supposed to be heartwarming. ;_;

Classic Doctor Who passes with flying colors for its full run, including major scenes throughout its entire run (even in the early 60's) where female main characters talk about things like mathematics and explosives and killing monsters and toppling governments, but new Who fails miserably, go figure.

Also, Avenue Q isn't film or TV, but it still fails miserably because it's sexist as hell to a rather shocking degree, which I just wanted to mention because it pissed me right the fuck off once I finally saw it. >:(

Sorry to hear about your uncle. Hope he gets better soon. *hugs*

Thank you. *hugs*

Details on Avenue Q's sexism! I thought it had the most edgy-to-be-edgy-ist soundtrack ever when I first heard it, but I've never seen the play. I used to like the songs, but now they just embarrassment squick me.

I think the writer of the linked blog said that the leading ladies of old Hollywood could hold their own as major characters - it'd be interesting to see if in some respects female characters have taken a step back in recent times.

It makes me sad that HF and SotD don't do that well :(

There are basically three female characters in Avenue Q - the Japanese stereotype (itself acceptable, although really overdone, because it's clearly meant as parody and they lampshade it with a song) whose one big goal in life (despite being a therapist with two Master's degrees) is to finally force her deadbeat boyfriend into marrying her; the main character Kate Monster who hates porn (like all women, of course) and whose verse in "Sucks to be Me" is all about how her life sucks because she doesn't have a boyfriend (which theme is carried throughout the play) and who won't be friends with a guy because she doesn't want guy friends, she wants a boyfriend; and Lucy the Slut, who is (of course) the villain of the thing, and whose happy ending involves getting brain damage and declaring herself a born-again virgin. Nice.

Like I said, the racism stuff is clearly done on purpose as satire, as is everything to do with the whole closeted Republican homosexual stereotype, and they're done pretty well (although, like I said, I think they go overboard on the Asian thing, especially since all her solos have little Asian-style music zings shoved into the orchestration, which gets annoying), but the misogyny is very clearly not on purpose, and it's really bad. To the point where, at intermission, I turned to my mother and said something like, "Huh... well, everyone's a whole lot sexist, too, apparently." And my mother looked at me and said, "Yep. Apparently so." And it didn't get any better in the second half at all. :(

I think that female characters have definitely taken a step back in recent times, in many ways. There's a Doctor Who episode from 1963 where the main female character Barbara teams up with this other woman to bust through Dalek-occupied London on their way to find Dalek headquarters to save the world, and on the way they attempt to save a scientist's life, run over several Daleks in a large truck, have a run-in with two human refugees (also both women) who betray them for food, and then Barbara basically engineers the Daleks' defeat by bullshitting them with fake human history ('cause she's a history teacher and all), and they never once talk about the menfolk, IIRC, except possibly in an offhand "gosh, I hope those guys I was traveling with aren't dead yet" kind of way. And that's just one example. By comparison, in four seasons of New Who, I can't think offhand of any conversation where two main female characters discuss anything that didn't involve the Doctor, usually having to do with whether or not they love him and how much. >:(

It makes me sad that HF and SotD don't do that well :(

Me too. And I almost cried the second time SotD used gay as an insult; maybe I'd expected better because I saw HF first, I don't know, it just really upset me. It's always the first thing I think of when anyone mentions SotD, it kind of ruined the whole thing for me. :(

I totally agree with the sexism in Avenue Q, especially as far as Kate and Lucy were concerned, except that I thought the Christmas Eve's big goal in life was to get enough money to move to a better neighborhood. Of course, I saw the darn thing 5 years ago, so what do I know?

I want more shows with kickass female characters. Hell, I'll settle for a few more female characters that are motivated by something other than being a wife/girlfriend, being a mommy, or trying to become one or the other.

I want more shows with kickass female characters. Hell, I'll settle for a few more female characters that are motivated by something other than being a wife/girlfriend, being a mommy, or trying to become one or the other.

That would be very nice indeed.

Sooo... a lot of crap about finally hooking a guy and the one who just uses them is the bad guy until she gets fixed. Niiiiiice. I kind of figured that, but I assumed Kate wanted her school as much as a boyfriend. Or that she got over thinking a boyfriend is what she really needs as part of her character development. But yeah, "Everybody's a little bit racist" never gave me high hopes for it.

I don't even know what to say about Who :| The more I hear the more it seems like every bloody female companion falls in love with the Doctor which is just... weird.

I think when I first saw SotD that stuff wasn't starting to bother me yet. Ignorance is bliss :|

it'd be interesting to see if in some respects female characters have taken a step back in recent times.

My fiancé was watching a bunch of '50s movies a few years ago. The ones he saw had intelligent and capable female characters in leading roles. He was very surprised, because, well, it was the '50s.

Sigh.

I wonder if it's because people are more aware of feminist issues. Like, they think, "if our female characters are stronger and more active than the industry standard, we'll be seen as that edgy feminist film, and we don't want that". Whereas in the 50s, probably no one was even thinking about that.

I've seen that thrown out. But idk, I have hard time believing people actively worry about being seen as edgy feminists and alienating their viewership.

Like, I haven't even done any research, but one thing they didn't really have in old Hollywood would be the high special effects, action hero movies with beefy hero types. And they didn't have chick flicks either, really. I mean, they had genres, and romances, but I don't think then they had a clear line between what kind of movies men and women were separately supposed to enjoy. Maybe that has something to do with it. Somehow things changed, anyway.

Classic Doctor Who passes with flying colors for its full run, including major scenes throughout its entire run (even in the early 60's) where female main characters talk about things like mathematics and explosives and killing monsters and toppling governments, but new Who fails miserably, go figure.

I'm by no means a Who expert, having seen only the first few of the new episodes, but I thought there were quite a few scenes with Billie Piper and female guests interacting. The one with Charles Dickens comes to mind, as it was my favorite episode. Billie and the actress who now plays Gwen in Torchwood have some scenes together in it.

Sorry to butt in, but I was a little confused because this was actually one of the reasons I liked the show.

Billie and the actress who now plays Gwen in Torchwood have some scenes together in it.

Yeah, and they talk about boys, IIRC. Rose had a conversation with that blue chick from "End of the World", though, which may not have included them talking about the Doctor, I can't remember. And it's possible that she and her mother have had a conversation that wasn't about the Doctor or Mickey or Pete, but I can't remember any offhand. Rose and Sarah Jane certainly didn't.

It would be an interesting exercise, to go back through and count. I've been meaning to re-watch some New Who for fic purposes, I may have to do that.

SK linked me to that yesterday in her continuing quest to actually make someone's eyeballs pop out with rage (I've been sitting on it since then going "Well, I can't have three days in a row where I do nothing but post about how much the world sucks...). It's pretty much cemented my plans to write & film a whole bunch of indie horror/sci-fi movies.

I mean, fuck that shit. So it'll be amateur writing with amateur directing and amateur actors. ~*~Maybe I can change the world.~*~

Inorite? I feel exactly the same way. And go for it, man. Part of the reason I want to get published is that I think I've got a pretty good feminist message going. I wanna ~*~change the world~*~ too. Lolz. :\

Eek! *hug* I hope your uncle gets better real quick.

Thank you! *hug*

I concluded Hollywood was dominated by perpetual pre-adolescent boys making the movies they wanted to see

Well, yeah. It doesn't excuse the existence of gender imbalance, but yeah, when you make a movie, IMO, you should make the sort of movie you would like to see if you were an audience member.

On the other hand, "whatever it is women talk about"? WTF?

That made me Spock brow hardcore.

What do they think we talk about!? Holy golden pogo-stick of the almighty.

Tampons. And gossip. And our hair.

Tampons.

Which, in relation to movies, makes me instantly think of Ginger Snaps (a Canadian production, go figure).

I agree. Unfortunately, since they have so much control they're cockblocking people who would like to get their own favorite kind of movies up and hiding their reasons behind the audience, plus that "no girly-talky" shit, which is inexcusable.

Have you seen TDK? Did you like it? I still need to see Hellboy. I've been looking forward to it!!

I'm torn on TDK. I think I might have to see it again to decide whether I liked it or not. It didn't help that I was sitting in an area of the theater that made it difficult to make out what the characters were saying.