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	tez 2007-09-07 05:01 pm UTC (link)
	It's just that the environment in other communities tends to be more welcoming to certain sorts of posts. I find it amazing that people don't just take this for what it's worth instead of getting bitchy/defensive/wanky about it. (Reply to this)

	kadath 2007-09-07 05:15 pm UTC (link)
	The operative point is not that much of anything is technically against the rules All I ask is that it 1) be related to fandom, and 2) not be horribly depressingly nauseatingly evil. Beyond that, I DON'T CARE. (You'll notice "eating our own" is not against the rules.) I mean, Snax and I added "don't be an idiot" to the userinfo. What else can we do? (Reply to this)(Thread)

	snacky 2007-09-07 09:14 pm UTC (link)
	I dunno, do we need to add even more detail? Gah. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

littlebitca
2007-09-07 11:19 pm UTC (link)

I was musing on this as I was reading it and about it and something occurred to me. *gasp* Maybe the response of "It's not against the rules" is really a way of saying "hey, I did read the user info before I posted it!" And if so, then maybe just acknowledging politely that no, indeed, it is not, but over time this comm has been mainly used for fandom information, recs and links [or whatever] and posts like yours are better received in the *fill-in-the-blank* comm. Just to note that we realize they did the right thing in checking and the 'mistake' was in not knowing how the comm came to be used.

Of course, this only applies if the poster really is a JF n00b and not someone with a changed user name who's been here forever and is just being an ass.

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	hearsawho 2007-09-07 10:00 pm UTC (link)
	What else can we do? You can elect me for Mayor! I'm running on a platform of pie and catfighting. (Reply to this)(Parent)

	princessdot 2007-09-07 05:30 pm UTC (link)
	~Dot's response to F_L lately~ scroll, scroll, scroll.... (Reply to this)

ashenmote
2007-09-07 05:32 pm UTC (link)

It would help if people would get it into their heads that user infos hold a set of rules and guidelines or a list of things not welcome in the community/things best to avoid/whatever things - and not actually an actionable bill of rights that guarantees them a positive response as long as they only act, I don't know what to call it, in accordance with the Constitution?

Yeah. That would help.

I miss

staroverthebay's cat posts.

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	pyratejenni 2007-09-07 06:40 pm UTC (link)
	Start a "Cat Macros: Threat or Menace?" thread on fandom_discuss. You could even make it a poll! (Reply to this)(Parent)

hearsawho
2007-09-07 10:05 pm UTC (link)

Actually, no one ever starts out saying that the post is against the rules of fandom_lounge.

I was just talking about that in my own post. In this particular instance, I don't think anyone told the OP that the post wasn't allowed - just that she might have better luck getting the responses she wanted from another comm.

People's feelings about n00bs are pretty clear to see, and I guess the defensiveness comes from the new people desperately not wanting to be painted with that brush. So instead of asking questions or saying "oh okay, that makes sense, thanks," they want to duke it out gladiator-style.

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	emiweebee 2007-09-07 10:58 pm UTC (link)
	Can we just link star as an example of how not to be? (Reply to this)

jim_smith
2007-09-08 12:38 am UTC (link)

The operative point is not that much of anything is technically against the rules (including, for example, [info]staroverthebay's cat posts). Because, obviously, there aren't a lot of rules in fandom_lounge.

It would seem to me that the natural solution then would be to make some more rules (e.g., "Listen to people who aren't mods because they know stuff."). Obviously waiting for everyone on JournalFen to just sort of feel out the subtle, unspoken conventions distinct to each community isn't working.

This feels like a familiar pattern I've witnessed before, usually coinciding with the existence of an unintentional clique/cabal/whatever. Well-meaning people form a forum, develop a shared sense of what is and isn't okay. At first they don't have to explain anything, and therefore become comfortable with not doing so. But eventually they're joined by enough newbies questioning the way things are that it becomes a hot button issue. This tension is exacerbated by the dinos' now deep-seated confidence that "that's the way it's always been" doesn't need to be explained, which in turn fuels the noobs' growing sense that it's all just a bunch of elitism. Which confounds the dinos, who never meant to be elitists and are put off by such baseless accusations, until you wind up with a vicious circle of "LURK MOAR" vs. "YOU THINK YOU'RE BETTER THAN ME?"

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	pyratejenni 2007-09-08 01:09 am UTC (link)
	This tension is exacerbated by the dinos' now deep-seated confidence that "that's the way it's always been" doesn't need to be explained, which in turn fuels the noobs' growing sense that it's all just a bunch of elitism. And often, it hasn't "always been this way", too. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	white_serpent 2007-09-08 02:08 am UTC (link)
	And often, it hasn't "always been this way", too. Yeah, that too. (Reply to this)(Parent)

white_serpent
2007-09-08 02:07 am UTC (link)

I think it's more like this:

There aren't a lot of rules in fandom_lounge. You may think this gives you license to post almost anything at all. It does! You will quickly find that it also gives everyone else license to say whatever they like in reply; this almost always includes off-topic discussions and gripes. If you're okay with this, post away! If not, seek another community that more exactly fits what you're looking for.

Which confounds the dinos, who never meant to be elitists and are put off by such baseless accusations

They're never entirely baseless.

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jim_smith
2007-09-08 02:28 am UTC (link)

If you're okay with this, post away! If not, seek another community that more exactly fits what you're looking for.

Yeah, but are people actually stating this in fandom_lounge? Because in my experience with the other fandom_* and *_wank communities, people will generally just say "Epic fail" or "LOL!SENSITIVE" or "Pigs carry E. coli," and assume the person will catch their drift.

Most of these communities want to be regulated by peer pressure ("Hey, everyone treats me like a drooling moron when I do this, so I'd better stop doing this!"). But they also inevitably attract a butthurt segment of the populace that can't grasp that concept ("How dare you treat me like a drooling moron? What gives you the right? I'd better do this even harder in defiance!").

They're never entirely baseless.

Of course not, but the dinos never recognize that.

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white_serpent
2007-09-08 02:42 am UTC (link)

Yeah, but are people actually stating this in fandom_lounge?

Naturally not.

That was just my attempt to improve the community info. "Listen to the oldbies" doesn't help, really, because the new people don't know who they are, and they don't necessarily get when people are joking, either.

I'll probably add it to the f_l article on the wiki. Sometime. Eventually. Whenever it works again. It can come with links to the vicious attacks on

staroverthebay's kitten posts.

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puipui
2007-09-08 04:20 am UTC (link)

Yeah, but are people actually stating this in fandom_lounge?

I did - although, granted, I could've phrased it more clearly - and I got "IS IT AGAINST THE RULES? ARE YOU A MOD? WHY ARE YOU OPPRESSING ME?" in response, very like Avocado mentioned in her succinct and impressively accurate summary there. I think we're just attracting a lot of the butthurt segment of the populace at the moment, who have left LJ because they were butthurt there and have decided to continue their butthurt elsewhere now.

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puipui
2007-09-08 04:25 am UTC (link)

There aren't a lot of rules in fandom_lounge. You may think this gives you license to post almost anything at all. It does! You will quickly find that it also gives everyone else license to say whatever they like in reply; this almost always includes off-topic discussions and gripes. If you're okay with this, post away! If not, seek another community that more exactly fits what you're looking for.

I like this. It's very good. Also, it makes me realize that we're dealing with a variation on that whole "freedom of speech" fallacy here, that one where people scream about how they can say whatever they want because of freedom of speech, but when someone disagrees then or calls them a moron or whatever, the start screaming that those people have to stop because it's restricting their freedom of speech instead of realizing that that's just how freedom of speech works.

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